PSN-L Message - Subject: Re: diamagnetic levitation seismometer possibility-rebuttal

Bravo Charles !!!! Dave Nelson Rolling Hills Estates California From: Charles R Patton=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:22 PM To: psnlist@................. Subject: Re: diamagnetic levitation seismometer possibility-rebuttal Geoff, I have to strongly disagree with you. This following is a bit off the = normal PSN discussion, but of such concern to me, that I feel I have to = respond. I love studying first principles of technology -- such as the problem of = restoring technology from scratch on a desert isle. That having been = said, today there are numerous groups doing fantastic things at an = amateur level. Take your own example of the electron microscope. There = are some amateurs that have made just that -- electron microscopes. = Below are just a few additional projects that illustrate all the wealth = of amateur exploration of technology: 1) Quality lathes that can be replicated in 3rd world countries from = scrap and concrete. See multimachine@............... 2) Farnsworth fusion reactors 3) 3-D printers 4) CNC machines of various complexities and accuracies. 5) Radio amateurs doing earth/moon (moon bounce) radio communication and = satellite communication through their own designed and constructed = satellites. Others are doing laser communication over multi-kilometer = distances 6) Seismographs of professional level sensitivity including those of = Randall Peters that started this particular discussion. PSN has acted = as a wonderful focus point for all sorts of projects centered around the = problem of sensing internal earth's motions. =20 All of the above replicate at an amateur level things that didn't exist = 100 years ago. And then there's the problem -- what exactly is an = amateur? It would seem your definition is he/she is incompetent. I = would argue that an amateur is just someone who doesn't make his living = in the area that he is exploring/playing with and even that is begging = the question a bit. What about the person who just loves his job so = much that he goes home and does more of it? The incredible analog = electronics designer, Jim Williams fit this definition to a tee. = Obviously the examples above are accomplished by very competent people = -- but they're doing it for the fun of it with perhaps a serious end = goal in mind. The first example of the multimachine has a serious end = goal. Many of the amateur seismologists enjoy their "hobby", but some = surely hope that the science progresses and leads to better instruments = and understanding of the earth around them. Again, a serious end goal = is the Dave Nelson/Angel collaboration on vertical instruments of = "professional" quality. =20 Who knows when a hobby idea fertilizes a solution to a problem at work = that leads to a change that raises the level of understanding. Einstein = wasn't working as a physicist, but rather as a patent examiner, when he = came up with the theory of relativity and his Nobel prize winning paper = on photoelectricity. So by definition he was a amateur. Amateurs can = change the world. I'll be the first to admit that the amateur construction of many of the = examples above is facilitated by the runoff of ideas and technology as = the lake of high technology rises around us. But, making use of = discarded equipment and new ideas isn't stupid -- look at it as being = "Green"! And in my mind, the Gutenberg press invention of the modern = world is the World Wide Web, whereby we all can collaborate on wondrous = technology in our own ways. So sticking to coils and magnets is OK if = that is what you want, but decrying an amateur striking out along a new = trail in a search for hidden treasure, is being a bit Luddite in my = opinion. The breakthroughs come with new ideas, many of which may not = lead anywhere, but, oh the satisfaction and glory when one pans out! = And if the amateur is doing it for the pure sport, then the journey was = enjoyable, too. Regards, Charles R. Patton On 7/11/2012 7:17 AM, Geoff wrote: I read all your meandering thoughts on whatever=20 and wonder why get lost in looking at trees=20 when its the overall forest that really matters.=20 Why not simply experiment in creating a new=20 geophone or whatever and simply keep what=20 is proven to work and throw away the remainder.=20 We are amateurs here not theoretical physicist.=20 I see a possibility you can hoover a magnetic=20 whatever and if the angles and dangles are correct=20 you may be able to achieve a horizontal floating=20 free period of 20 seconds, even 10 would be acceptable.=20 All within a very small area, yet it would require=20 equipment to build beyond the abilities of most=20 all amateurs.=20 Then you need to somehow sense the relative=20 motion of the hoovering mass against its=20 supporting base.=20 It all sounds so easy in the mind but to=20 put it to reality will require a manhatten=20 project of instrumentation to carry out.=20 Good luck you eggheads !=20 Has anyone ever seen an electron microscope=20 which can measure the separation between=20 a mass on a spring and the base ?=20 But what amateur could ever afford such=20 a thing who is not "Bill Gates" himself ?=20 I think we should just stick with coils and magnets=20 till the industrial peoples come up with=20 a new circuit on a microchip.=20 I have been redoing my OS the past several days=20 after loosing my Amazon instant movie DRM.=20 from this I have learned once you buy DRM stuff=20 do not make any system wide changes in NTFS security=20 settings or play with services you do not fully=20 understand. catching up on PSN reading is generally=20 fun after being away for awhile.=20 Your attention to complex detail, can sometimes be amusing.=20 Regards,=20 geoff=20 __________________________________________________________=20 Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSNLIST)=20 To leave this list email PSNLIST-REQUEST@.............. with the body = of the message (first line only): unsubscribe=20 See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.=20

Bravo Charles !!!!

Dave Nelson

Rolling Hills Estates = California

From: Charles R Patton

Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 5:22 PM

To: psnlist@..............

Subject: Re: diamagnetic levitation seismometer=20 possibility-rebuttal

Geoff,

I have to strongly disagree with you. This following is a bit off = the normal=20 PSN discussion, but of such concern to me, that I feel I have to=20 respond.

I love studying first principles of technology -- such = as the=20 problem of restoring technology from scratch on a desert isle. That having been said, today = there are=20 numerous groups doing fantastic things at an amateur level. Take your own example of the = electron=20 microscope. There are = some amateurs=20 that have made just that -- electron microscopes. Below are just a few = additional projects=20 that illustrate all the wealth of amateur exploration of=20 technology:

1) Quality lathes that can be replicated in 3rd world=20 countries from scrap and concrete. =20 See multimachine@................

2) Farnsworth fusion reactors

3) 3-D printers

4) CNC machines of various complexities and=20 accuracies.

5) Radio amateurs doing earth/moon (moon bounce) radio = communication and satellite communication through their own designed and = constructed satellites. Others are doing laser communication over=20 multi-kilometer distances

6) Seismographs of professional level sensitivity = including=20 those of Randall Peters that started this particular discussion. PSN has acted as a wonderful = focus point=20 for all sorts of projects centered around the problem of sensing = internal=20 earth's motions. =20

All of the above replicate at an amateur level things = that=20 didn't exist 100 years ago. = And=20 then there's the problem -- what exactly is an amateur? It would seem your definition = is he/she=20 is incompetent. I would = argue that=20 an amateur is just someone who doesn't make his living in the area that = he is=20 exploring/playing with and even that is begging the question a bit. What about the person who just = loves his=20 job so much that he goes home and does more of it? The incredible analog = electronics=20 designer, Jim Williams fit this definition to a tee. Obviously the examples = above are=20 accomplished by very competent people -- but they're doing it for the = fun of it=20 with perhaps a serious end goal in mind. =20 The first example of the multimachine has a serious end = goal. Many of the amateur = seismologists enjoy=20 their "hobby", but some surely hope that the science progresses and = leads to=20 better instruments and understanding of the earth around them. Again, a serious end goal is = the Dave=20 Nelson/Angel collaboration on vertical instruments of "professional"=20 quality. =

Who knows when a hobby idea fertilizes a solution to a = problem=20 at work that leads to a change that raises the level of = understanding. Einstein wasn't working as a = physicist,=20 but rather as a patent examiner, when he came up with the theory of = relativity=20 and his Nobel prize winning paper on photoelectricity. So by definition he was = a=20 amateur. Amateurs can = change the=20 world.

I'll be the first to admit that the amateur = construction of=20 many of the examples above is facilitated by the runoff of ideas and = technology=20 as the lake of high technology =20 rises around us. = But,=20 making use of discarded equipment and new ideas isn't stupid -- look at = it as=20 being "Green"! And in my = mind, the=20 Gutenberg press invention of the modern world is the World Wide Web, = whereby we=20 all can collaborate on wondrous technology in our own ways. So sticking to coils and = magnets is OK=20 if that is what you want, but decrying an amateur striking out along a = new trail=20 in a search for hidden treasure, is being a bit Luddite in my = opinion. The breakthroughs come with = new=20 ideas, many of which may = not lead=20 anywhere, but, oh the satisfaction and glory when one pans out! And if the amateur is doing it = for the=20 pure sport, then the journey was enjoyable, too.

Regards,

Charles R. Patton

On 7/11/2012 7:17 AM, Geoff wrote:

I read = all your=20 meandering thoughts on whatever
and wonder why get lost in looking = at=20 trees
when its the overall forest that really matters.

Why = not=20 simply experiment in creating a new
geophone or whatever and = simply keep=20 what
is proven to work and throw away the remainder.

We = are=20 amateurs here not theoretical physicist.

I see a possibility = you can=20 hoover a magnetic
whatever and if the angles and dangles are = correct=20
you may be able to achieve a horizontal floating
free period = of 20=20 seconds, even 10 would be acceptable.
All within a very small = area, yet it=20 would require
equipment to build beyond the abilities of most =
all=20 amateurs.

Then you need to somehow sense the relative =
motion of=20 the hoovering mass against its
supporting base.

It all = sounds so=20 easy in the mind but to
put it to reality will require a manhatten =
project of instrumentation to carry out.

Good luck you = eggheads !=20

Has anyone ever seen an electron microscope
which can = measure the=20 separation between
a mass on a spring and the base ?
But what = amateur=20 could ever afford such
a thing who is not "Bill Gates" himself ? =

I=20 think we should just stick with coils and magnets
till the = industrial=20 peoples come up with
a new circuit on a microchip.

I have = been=20 redoing my OS the past several days
after loosing my Amazon = instant movie=20 DRM.
from this I have learned once you buy DRM stuff
do not = make any=20 system wide changes in NTFS security
settings or play with = services you do=20 not fully
understand. catching up on PSN reading is generally =
fun=20 after being away for awhile.
Your attention to complex detail, can = sometimes be amusing.

Regards,
geoff=20
__________________________________________________________ =

Public=20 Seismic Network Mailing List (PSNLIST)

To leave this list = email PSNLIST-REQUEST@SEISMICNET= ..COM=20 with the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.co= m/maillist.html=20 for more information.

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