PSN-L Email List Message

Subject: Re: diamagnetic levitation seismometer possibility-rebuttal
From: GMVoeth HM gmvoeth@...........
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:28:33 +0000


On 7/11/2012 5:22 PM, Charles R Patton wrote:
>
> Geoff,
>
> I have to strongly disagree with you.This following is a bit off the 
> normal PSN discussion, but of such concern to me, that I feel I have 
> to respond.
>
> I love studying first principles of technology -- such as the problem 
> of restoring technology from scratch on a desert isle.That having been 
> said, today there are numerous groups doing fantastic things at an 
> amateur level.Take your own example of the electron microscope.There 
> are some amateurs that have made just that -- electron 
> microscopes.Below are just a few additional projects that illustrate 
> all the wealth of amateur exploration of technology:
>
> 1) Quality lathes that can be replicated in 3rd world countries from 
> scrap and concrete.See multimachine@...............
>
> 2) Farnsworth fusion reactors
>
> 3) 3-D printers
>
> 4) CNC machines of various complexities and accuracies.
>
> 5) Radio amateurs doing earth/moon (moon bounce) radio communication 
> and satellite communication through their own designed and constructed 
> satellites. Others are doing laser communication over multi-kilometer 
> distances
>
> 6) Seismographs of professional level sensitivity including those of 
> Randall Peters that started this particular discussion.PSN has acted 
> as a wonderful focus point for all sorts of projects centered around 
> the problem of sensing internal earth's motions.
>
> All of the above replicate at an amateur level things that didn't 
> exist 100 years ago.And then there's the problem -- what exactly is an 
> amateur?It would seem your definition is he/she is incompetent.I would 
> argue that an amateur is just someone who doesn't make his living in 
> the area that he is exploring/playing with and even that is begging 
> the question a bit.What about the person who just loves his job so 
> much that he goes home and does more of it? The incredible analog 
> electronics designer, Jim Williams fit this definition to a 
> tee.Obviously the examples above are accomplished by very competent 
> people -- but they're doing it for the fun of it with perhaps a 
> serious end goal in mind.The first example of the multimachine has a 
> serious end goal.Many of the amateur seismologists enjoy their 
> "hobby", but some surely hope that the science progresses and leads to 
> better instruments and understanding of the earth around them.Again, a 
> serious end goal is the Dave Nelson/Angel collaboration on vertical 
> instruments of "professional" quality.
>
> Who knows when a hobby idea fertilizes a solution to a problem at work 
> that leads to a change that raises the level of understanding.Einstein 
> wasn't working as a physicist, but rather as a patent examiner, when 
> he came up with the theory of relativity and his Nobel prize winning 
> paper on photoelectricity.So by definition he was a amateur.Amateurs 
> can change the world.
>
> I'll be the first to admit that the amateur construction of many of 
> the examples above is facilitated by the runoff of ideas and 
> technology as the lake of high technologyrises around us.But, making 
> use of discarded equipment and new ideas isn't stupid -- look at it as 
> being "Green"!And in my mind, the Gutenberg press invention of the 
> modern world is the World Wide Web, whereby we all can collaborate on 
> wondrous technology in our own ways.So sticking to coils and magnets 
> is OK if that is what you want, but decrying an amateur striking out 
> along a new trail in a search for hidden treasure, is being a bit 
> Luddite in my opinion.The breakthroughs come with new ideas,many of 
> which may not lead anywhere, but, oh the satisfaction and glory when 
> one pans out!And if the amateur is doing it for the pure sport, then 
> the journey was enjoyable, too.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles R. Patton
>
>
> On 7/11/2012 7:17 AM, Geoff wrote:
>> I read all your meandering thoughts on whatever
>> and wonder why get lost in looking at trees
>> when its the overall forest that really matters.
>>
>> Why not simply experiment in creating a new
>> geophone or whatever and simply keep what
>> is proven to work and throw away the remainder.
>>
>> We are amateurs here not theoretical physicist.
>>
>> I see a possibility you can hoover a magnetic
>> whatever and if the angles and dangles are correct
>> you may be able to achieve a horizontal floating
>> free period of 20 seconds, even 10 would be acceptable.
>> All within a very small area, yet it would require
>> equipment to build beyond the abilities of most
>> all amateurs.
>>
>> Then you need to somehow sense the relative
>> motion of the hoovering mass against its
>> supporting base.
>>
>> It all sounds so easy in the mind but to
>> put it to reality will require a manhatten
>> project of instrumentation to carry out.
>>
>> Good luck you eggheads !
>>
>> Has anyone ever seen an electron microscope
>> which can measure the separation between
>> a mass on a spring and the base ?
>> But what amateur could ever afford such
>> a thing who is not "Bill Gates" himself ?
>>
>> I think we should just stick with coils and magnets
>> till the industrial peoples come up with
>> a new circuit on a microchip.
>>
>> I have been redoing my OS the past several days
>> after loosing my Amazon instant movie DRM.
>> from this I have learned once you buy DRM stuff
>> do not make any system wide changes in NTFS security
>> settings or play with services you do not fully
>> understand. catching up on PSN reading is generally
>> fun after being away for awhile.
>> Your attention to complex detail, can sometimes be amusing.
>>

>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> geoff
>> __________________________________________________________
>>
>> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSNLIST)
>>
>> To leave this list email PSNLIST-REQUEST@.............. with the body 
>> of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
>> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.
>
>
If I did not say directly something, then don't speculate as to my meanings.
This is what gets me thrown in the nuthouse.
People put words in my mouth making others believe
something I never meant, something which their minds see distorted somehow.
Maybe a word of mine means something different to me than to you.

The secret service said i made Veiled threats against the president.
then they said to a judge they were afraid of me so not
to tell me about them (The agents involved), it is your right to know 
your accusers.
All lies, all lies on the part of the secret service.
I was being tormented (traumatized) by person/persons unknown.
who are using cold war tactics. Instead of shooting everyone around me
I called the Secret Service/CIA/FBI and spouted nonsense at them.
The secret service was the only stupid agency to respond.
You see, I blame these civil cladded security geeks for
making people blow up killing everyone they can from
time to time. They do NOT believe in keeping an honest man honest.
They believe in UN-stabilizing otherwise marginal personalities.
Which I believe is Psychological warfare. these people are just as guilty
as those they excite into killing. Accessories or Instigators to the crime.
They will never pay the price they should.
They are Domestic Enemies of the US Constitution, even if paid to work 
for it.

If I do not say something direct and to the point you are
simply listening to a humans unfiltered thoughts
and not to be understood as more than that.

A human is a singularity which can imagine the infinite.
Its mind exists in another dimension possibly 100 milliseconds behind 
real time.
When you look at the world you never see it as it is in real time.

All ican say is "dont re arrange words to dominate my real meanings."

"It is not for me to prove my innocence it is for you to prove my guilt."

Amateur to ME simply is anyone interested in a particular field
who may or may not be an expert or a professional (paid to work there).
A professional does not have to be an expert, only paid or gainfully 
employed.
In some countries like the Socialistic or Communistic the amateurs
are actually doing it for their life's work paid for by their government.
In which case they are not really Amateurs.

there really should be standards for amateurs created by the Experts.
Such as a standard sensor/sensors instrumentation within the ability of
the poor folk to buy, setup and use. For me, this is a form of 
entertainment.

I live for a world of reality which is more than just living and making 
babies.
Cockroaches have enough intelligence to be survivors.

Thanks for your input, it forces me to think.

That pretty much all.

Regards,
geoff





  
    
  
  
    
On 7/11/2012 5:22 PM, Charles R Patton wrote:

Geoff,

I have to strongly disagree with you.  This following is a bit off the normal PSN discussion, but of such concern to me, that I feel I have to respond.

 

I love studying first principles of technology -- such as the problem of restoring technology from scratch on a desert isle.  That having been said, today there are numerous groups doing fantastic things at an amateur level.  Take your own example of the electron microscope.  There are some amateurs that have made just that -- electron microscopes.  Below are just a few additional projects that illustrate all the wealth of amateur exploration of technology:

1) Quality lathes that can be replicated in 3rd world countries from scrap and concrete.  See multimachine@...............

2) Farnsworth fusion reactors

3) 3-D printers

4) CNC machines of various complexities and accuracies.

5) Radio amateurs doing earth/moon (moon bounce) radio communication and satellite communication through their own designed and constructed satellites. Others are doing laser communication over multi-kilometer distances

6) Seismographs of professional level sensitivity including those of Randall Peters that started this particular discussion.  PSN has acted as a wonderful focus point for all sorts of projects centered around the problem of sensing internal earth's motions. 

 

All of the above replicate at an amateur level things that didn't exist 100 years ago.  And then there's the problem -- what exactly is an amateur?  It would seem your definition is he/she is incompetent.  I would argue that an amateur is just someone who doesn't make his living in the area that he is exploring/playing with and even that is begging the question a bit.  What about the person who just loves his job so much that he goes home and does more of it?  The incredible analog electronics designer, Jim Williams fit this definition to a tee.   Obviously the examples above are accomplished by very competent people -- but they're doing it for the fun of it with perhaps a serious end goal in mind.  The first example of the multimachine has a serious end goal.  Many of the amateur seismologists enjoy their "hobby", but some surely hope that the science progresses and leads to better instruments and understanding of the earth around them.  Again, a serious end goal is the Dave Nelson/Angel collaboration on vertical instruments of "professional" quality. 

 

Who knows when a hobby idea fertilizes a solution to a problem at work that leads to a change that raises the level of understanding.  Einstein wasn't working as a physicist, but rather as a patent examiner, when he came up with the theory of relativity and his Nobel prize winning paper on photoelectricity.   So by definition he was a amateur.  Amateurs can change the world.

 

I'll be the first to admit that the amateur construction of many of the examples above is facilitated by the runoff of ideas and technology as the lake of high technology  rises around us.   But, making use of discarded equipment and new ideas isn't stupid -- look at it as being "Green"!  And in my mind, the Gutenberg press invention of the modern world is the World Wide Web, whereby we all can collaborate on wondrous technology in our own ways.  So sticking to coils and magnets is OK if that is what you want, but decrying an amateur striking out along a new trail in a search for hidden treasure, is being a bit Luddite in my opinion.  The breakthroughs come with new ideas,  many of which may not lead anywhere, but, oh the satisfaction and glory when one pans out!  And if the amateur is doing it for the pure sport, then the journey was enjoyable, too.

 

Regards,

Charles R. Patton

 


On 7/11/2012 7:17 AM, Geoff wrote:
I read all your meandering thoughts on whatever
and wonder why get lost in looking at trees
when its the overall forest that really matters.

Why not simply experiment in creating a new
geophone or whatever and simply keep what
is proven to work and throw away the remainder.

We are amateurs here not theoretical physicist.

I see a possibility you can hoover a magnetic
whatever and if the angles and dangles are correct
you may be able to achieve a horizontal floating
free period of 20 seconds, even 10 would be acceptable.
All within a very small area, yet it would require
equipment to build beyond the abilities of most
all amateurs.

Then you need to somehow sense the relative
motion of the hoovering mass against its
supporting base.

It all sounds so easy in the mind but to
put it to reality will require a manhatten
project of instrumentation to carry out.

Good luck you eggheads !

Has anyone ever seen an electron microscope
which can measure the separation between
a mass on a spring and the base ?
But what amateur could ever afford such
a thing who is not "Bill Gates" himself ?

I think we should just stick with coils and magnets
till the industrial peoples come up with
a new circuit on a microchip.

I have been redoing my OS the past several days
after loosing my Amazon instant movie DRM.
from this I have learned once you buy DRM stuff
do not make any system wide changes in NTFS security
settings or play with services you do not fully
understand. catching up on PSN reading is generally
fun after being away for awhile.
Your attention to complex detail, can sometimes be amusing.





Regards,
geoff
__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSNLIST)

To leave this list email PSNLIST-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.


If I did not say directly something, then don't speculate as to my meanings.
This is what gets me thrown in the nuthouse.
People put words in my mouth making others believe
something I never meant, something which their minds see distorted somehow.
Maybe a word of mine means something different to me than to you.

The secret service said i made Veiled threats against the president.
then they said to a judge they were afraid of me so not
to tell me about them (The agents involved), it is your right to know your accusers.
All lies, all lies on the part of the secret service.
I was being tormented (traumatized) by person/persons unknown.
who are using cold war tactics. Instead of shooting everyone around me
I called the Secret Service/CIA/FBI and spouted nonsense at them.
The secret service was the only stupid agency to respond.
You see, I blame these civil cladded security geeks for
making people blow up killing everyone they can from
time to time. They do NOT believe in keeping an honest man honest.
They believe in UN-stabilizing otherwise marginal personalities.
Which I believe is Psychological warfare. these people are just as guilty
as those they excite into killing. Accessories or Instigators to the crime.
They will never pay the price they should.
They are Domestic Enemies of the US Constitution, even if paid to work for it.

If I do not say something direct and to the point you are
simply listening to a humans unfiltered thoughts
and not to be understood as more than that.

A human is a singularity which can imagine the infinite.
Its mind exists in another dimension possibly 100 milliseconds behind real time.
When you look at the world you never see it as it is in real time.

All ican say is "dont re arrange words to dominate my real meanings."

"It is not for me to prove my innocence it is for you to prove my guilt."

Amateur to ME simply is anyone interested in a particular field
who may or may not be an expert or a professional (paid to work there).
A professional does not have to be an expert, only paid or gainfully employed.
In some countries like the Socialistic or Communistic the amateurs
are actually doing it for their life's work paid for by their government.
In which case they are not really Amateurs.

there really should be standards for amateurs created by the Experts.
Such as a standard sensor/sensors instrumentation within the ability of
the poor folk to buy, setup and use. For me, this is a form of entertainment.

I live for a world of reality which is more than just living and making babies.
Cockroaches have enough intelligence to be survivors.

Thanks for your input, it forces me to think.

That pretty much all.

Regards,
geoff





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